In the Karate vs Kung Fu post, Shane made an interesting comment I’d like to get back to now. Here’s what he wrote:
Hi Wim,
Great couple of posts. I’m not sure that I agree about beating a better opponent in a competition, or losing to a worse one. If you win you are better, if you lose, you are worse. Simple as that. The competition is the empirical test, for a given set of rules at a given moment in time. We sometimes are surprised by beating or losing to someone, and occasionally luck can play a part, but if we can’t use competition to gage relative ability, what can we use? Past performance? Maybe. Reputation or the color of the belt holding someones trousers up? I sincerely hope not.
I used to enter a lot of pushing hands comps, and a few karate ones when I was younger. I mostly lost, but through perseverance gathered a handful of medals over the years. On those occasions, I dare say some of the other guys thought they should have won. If they could have, they would have, hence they were demonstrably proven wrong
I hate the ‘what if’ game. You know, if I had just done this technique, I would have won for sure. If I was more mentally prepared. If I had lost a few pounds and gone down a weight. (Or in my case, if I had just spent less time sitting on my arse drinking beer, and more time doing nei kung) It’s all fantasy, and competitions are the corresponding reality check.
All the best,
Shane
Here’s how I see it:
For me, it’s not really a “What if?” game. There’s certainly a place for that as analyzing your performance after the fight is key to improving your abilities. But I’m not all that concerned about what I should have done. I’m usually thinking more about getting it right the next time. Fights are chaos in action and there’s just no way you’ll get it right every single time. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try.
By playing a constructive “What if” game, you use the experience in the fight you lost to your advantage. Instead of beating yourself up over what you did wrong, you get over it and focus on how to avoid making the same mistake. Of course, there is rarely a black and white solution for whatever mistake you make. Usually there will be a bunch of options you could have tried, each with varying chances for success. I think that’s just wicked cool. It means more learning during training and I enjoy that the most. But I digress, back on track:
For me, the value of competing lies in several aspects:
- You train harder than usual when you’re in preparation for a fight. As a result, you learn more about your art, get in better shape and increase your skills.
- You’re forced to look at yourself in an honest way: which techniques am I good at? Which ones do I suck at? AKA, what’s good, what’s bad and how do I increase the former while fixing the latter.
- If you lie to yourself about those things in the previous bullet, you’ll pay for it. So you better be honest.
- You have to overcome your own fears and demons. They all come out to play both in training and during the fight.
- It’s just pure, uncensored, Neanderthal fun.
I also said in that post that I lost to fighters who were not as good as me. By that I mostly mean that I was stronger, in better shape and/or more skilled than them. But I still lost. Mainly because I wasn’t focused enough or didn’t handle the pre-fight stress correctly. And it cost me a lot of my abilities once the fight was on. Putting it differently, had there been no crowds, just the two of us in a ring, I’m confident I would have done much better. I’m not bitter about those lost fights, I did what I could and there’s not much more I could have done.
Another aspect to competing is how it’s just a snapshot in time of your own and your opponent’s abilities: Take on the same guy a month sooner or later and the results could be reversed. If you lose to a guy now and then train with a vengeance, you might beat him easily a year or two later. Or he might beat you once again, who knows? Every sport has great rivalries where competitors are too evenly matched for one of them to beat the other consistently.
So in the end, it doesn’t mean all that much if you win or lose. There will always be somebody better than you. There’ll always be many who are loads worse too. And sooner or later, you’ll become too old to keep up with the younger generation. But if you fight those younger guys without rules, things like experience and being a mean old SOB can turn the tide in your favor. Which is why I don’t think competitions have much actual value as a benchmark for real world performance. It’s better than nothing, but certainly not the be all, end all.
.
TheMartialArtsReporter says
Wim,
I appreciate your bringing up the topic of competing.
You state the value and aspects I totally agree with.
Years ago, when I competed in point-karate fighting,
the fights that I won, were clearly won due to the
mental state I was in or better ‘in the zone’.
And the ones I did not win were definitely due to the
lack of focus and I really think due to being intimidatd
by my opponents. If they won, they were better…. that day.
Overall, I took a lot away from competing, even or especially
for life off the mat/out of the ring.
I enjoy your posts, Wim.
Wim says
Thanks for the kind words. it’s nice to see people enjoy the posts.
I agree, competing was fun for me too. I learned a lot but it isn’t anything special. Just one more type of experience you can get in life.
TheMartialArtsReporter says
Wim,
I appreciate your bringing up the topic of competing.
You state the value and aspects I totally agree with.
Years ago, when I competed in point-karate fighting,
the fights that I won, were clearly won due to the
mental state I was in or better ‘in the zone’.
And the ones I did not win were definitely due to the
lack of focus and I really think due to being intimidatd
by my opponents. If they won, they were better…. that day.
Overall, I took a lot away from competing, even or especially
for life off the mat/out of the ring.
I enjoy your posts, Wim.
Wim says
Thanks for the kind words. it’s nice to see people enjoy the posts.
I agree, competing was fun for me too. I learned a lot but it isn’t anything special. Just one more type of experience you can get in life.
Danny Young says
Well, here’s my two cents on the subject. I enjoyed competition for these reasons, I trained harder, I learned more about Martial Art’s, and I learned more about myself. I always wanted to win, but on several occasions got my ass handed to me, but I learned from that also. I think for me, the greatest lessons was to be the best I could be, without comparing myself to another, to grow, and always be a teachable student.
Danny
Danny Young says
Well, here’s my two cents on the subject. I enjoyed competition for these reasons, I trained harder, I learned more about Martial Art’s, and I learned more about myself. I always wanted to win, but on several occasions got my ass handed to me, but I learned from that also. I think for me, the greatest lessons was to be the best I could be, without comparing myself to another, to grow, and always be a teachable student.
Danny
John W. Zimmer says
Hi Wim,
I agree with your logic. Although I did not always like the long drives, long waits and paying a lot of money for the privilege of sometimes fighting one two minute match (if I had a bad day), there was a lot of benefit.
I learned how to deal with anxiety, the many warm ups – only to cool down again due to a different division moving into your slot, fighting your fight (as opposed to fighting your opponents fight) and ultimately gaining confidence.
I think a person has to test themselves somehow so they really believe this stuff works… winning or losing is not all that – although winning days are better than losing days. :)
Wim says
John, boy do I know what you mean… My worst experience was at the EU Wushu championships in Portugal. Think it was in 2002. Luckily I was only team coach and not a competitor anymore. They had us up till 1.30AM for the medical checkup. But that wasn’t the biggest issue. The real kicker was how they dropped us of at the doc’s place with a bus and told us to find our own way to the hotel when we were done.
There’s more but I’ll leave it at that. Those things sure weren’t the fun parts of competing.. :-)
John W. Zimmer says
Hi Wim,
I agree with your logic. Although I did not always like the long drives, long waits and paying a lot of money for the privilege of sometimes fighting one two minute match (if I had a bad day), there was a lot of benefit.
I learned how to deal with anxiety, the many warm ups – only to cool down again due to a different division moving into your slot, fighting your fight (as opposed to fighting your opponents fight) and ultimately gaining confidence.
I think a person has to test themselves somehow so they really believe this stuff works… winning or losing is not all that – although winning days are better than losing days. :)
Wim says
John, boy do I know what you mean… My worst experience was at the EU Wushu championships in Portugal. Think it was in 2002. Luckily I was only team coach and not a competitor anymore. They had us up till 1.30AM for the medical checkup. But that wasn’t the biggest issue. The real kicker was how they dropped us of at the doc’s place with a bus and told us to find our own way to the hotel when we were done.
There’s more but I’ll leave it at that. Those things sure weren’t the fun parts of competing.. :-)
Rory says
Wim-
I always hated shiai and tournaments. Didn’t like crowds, dreaded performing… that was, for me, the most valuable reason. If you can’t handle the emotional issues of a tournament or, say, singing in public you are going to have real trouble with the emotional issues of another human being trying to kill you.
Whatever you study, I strongly encourage that you work very hard on the parts you dislike the most. If kata is boring, that’s where you will find your discipline. If sparring is scary you do it with the biggest and toughest you can find and learn to deal with the fear. For me it was being judged, even by an audience. Is till get stage fright, but it doesn’t show much.
Rory
Wim says
Rory: I agree. Getting over your own inhibitions is a big thing in defending your life. And in pretty much everything, else it’ll help too.
Competing sure gets you used to that. At the first world championships I entered, it was a pretty spooky feeling to be center stage with everybody watching. Still, the Russian guy trying to bash my head in a minute later kind of made it less of a big deal. :-)
Rory says
Wim-
I always hated shiai and tournaments. Didn’t like crowds, dreaded performing… that was, for me, the most valuable reason. If you can’t handle the emotional issues of a tournament or, say, singing in public you are going to have real trouble with the emotional issues of another human being trying to kill you.
Whatever you study, I strongly encourage that you work very hard on the parts you dislike the most. If kata is boring, that’s where you will find your discipline. If sparring is scary you do it with the biggest and toughest you can find and learn to deal with the fear. For me it was being judged, even by an audience. Is till get stage fright, but it doesn’t show much.
Rory
Wim says
Rory: I agree. Getting over your own inhibitions is a big thing in defending your life. And in pretty much everything, else it’ll help too.
Competing sure gets you used to that. At the first world championships I entered, it was a pretty spooky feeling to be center stage with everybody watching. Still, the Russian guy trying to bash my head in a minute later kind of made it less of a big deal. :-)
Shane MacLaughlin says
Wim, great points and pretty much the reasons I competed myself. My coach often said I’d win more if I cared more about winning, but I was always pleased to compete. Coming up against a really good opponent in top form has always been much more fun for me than an easy win over someone less good. The couple of beers, deep fried chicken, and sticky toffee pudding also taste so much better after a couple of months doing the ‘Fighters Body’ thing.
I see a number of people that shun competition, and I have always found the many reasons for doing so rather suspect. For me it was a highlight, albeit that I stayed within the bounds of the formats I was comfortable with. I’ve yet to meet anyone, winner or loser, who has regretted entering.
Wim says
Shane: Competition is fun, I tell all my guys that. There’s annoying stuff that comes with them (the waiting….) but mostly, you have to see it as an experience few people get and enjot the hell out of it.
Shane MacLaughlin says
Wim, great points and pretty much the reasons I competed myself. My coach often said I’d win more if I cared more about winning, but I was always pleased to compete. Coming up against a really good opponent in top form has always been much more fun for me than an easy win over someone less good. The couple of beers, deep fried chicken, and sticky toffee pudding also taste so much better after a couple of months doing the ‘Fighters Body’ thing.
I see a number of people that shun competition, and I have always found the many reasons for doing so rather suspect. For me it was a highlight, albeit that I stayed within the bounds of the formats I was comfortable with. I’ve yet to meet anyone, winner or loser, who has regretted entering.
Wim says
Shane: Competition is fun, I tell all my guys that. There’s annoying stuff that comes with them (the waiting….) but mostly, you have to see it as an experience few people get and enjot the hell out of it.
Garry Hodgins says
I have mixed feelings about the value of competitions. I agree with what you say about their value as a motivational tool to help us focus and refine our conditioning and technique and they also, generally, help one to build character through the accumulation of experience. However, I dont agree with Shane’s comment that, like Edith Piaf, there are never any regrets. Now, I am conscious that some of the more battle hardened and driven competitors out there may take issue with these comments and talk about developing a “winning” and “losing” mentality but life has shown me that it and we are far more complex than the lessons learned from the crucible of controlled competitions. The lessons are only useful as metaphors for far more important challenges which we will have to face along the way. I have some regrets about not listening to my better judgement and entering a shuai jiao tournament (as defending champion against strong competitiors) when I was on anti – biotics and feeling weak and asthmatic. I should have listened to my own counsel and not given in to machismo. I am still embarassed by how I performed that day and, ultimately, it led me to give up competitions. I can hear whispers of “losing mentality” surfacing here. Overall, though, I did benefit form taking part in pushing hands, shuai jiao and san shou competitions. I enjoyed, and still enjoy, training with some realism but am more conscious now than ever that martial arts, for all their allure are simply a game. The lessons that you shoose to learn from playing them, however, can have seriously positive consequences.
Wim says
Garry:
It’s true that entering a competition when you’re sick isn’t the best of ideas. But you did it anyway and made it out in one piece. IMO, that’s all that matters. We all make mistakes and do things that in hindsight we wouldn’t consider anymore. I don’t think you can fault yourself for being human.
I agree, competing is just a game. It can be an intense one, but still a game.
Garry Hodgins says
I have mixed feelings about the value of competitions. I agree with what you say about their value as a motivational tool to help us focus and refine our conditioning and technique and they also, generally, help one to build character through the accumulation of experience. However, I dont agree with Shane’s comment that, like Edith Piaf, there are never any regrets. Now, I am conscious that some of the more battle hardened and driven competitors out there may take issue with these comments and talk about developing a “winning” and “losing” mentality but life has shown me that it and we are far more complex than the lessons learned from the crucible of controlled competitions. The lessons are only useful as metaphors for far more important challenges which we will have to face along the way. I have some regrets about not listening to my better judgement and entering a shuai jiao tournament (as defending champion against strong competitiors) when I was on anti – biotics and feeling weak and asthmatic. I should have listened to my own counsel and not given in to machismo. I am still embarassed by how I performed that day and, ultimately, it led me to give up competitions. I can hear whispers of “losing mentality” surfacing here. Overall, though, I did benefit form taking part in pushing hands, shuai jiao and san shou competitions. I enjoyed, and still enjoy, training with some realism but am more conscious now than ever that martial arts, for all their allure are simply a game. The lessons that you shoose to learn from playing them, however, can have seriously positive consequences.
Wim says
Garry:
It’s true that entering a competition when you’re sick isn’t the best of ideas. But you did it anyway and made it out in one piece. IMO, that’s all that matters. We all make mistakes and do things that in hindsight we wouldn’t consider anymore. I don’t think you can fault yourself for being human.
I agree, competing is just a game. It can be an intense one, but still a game.