Wim Demeere's Blog

Understanding Violence: You, Society, World

How to block a knife attack

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There are many misconceptions and myths about the techniques you can use when somebody tries to stab you with a blade. One of these is that you should try to “block the knife attack”. I’m not claiming it’s impossible because I know people who’ve done just that but I am going to say that there are good and bad ways of going about it. Not to put a fine point (pun intended) on it, do you want to know how to block a knife attack? Not like this guy did…

how to block a knife attack

 

The irony of this picture is, of course, the tattoo on his chest. Seems like somebody wanted to test that theory…

Before we go on, here I cover much more on knives and knife defense

Back on track.

There are numerous ways of defending against a knife attack and they all have their value. Some are better than others. Some are worthless in my opinion. And then there’s everything in between. That said, however “bad” you may judge a technique to be, there is only one factor that determines its worth in the end: did it work or not?

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The Tueller Drill and Self-Defense

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Here’s an interesting interview: Lieutenant Dennis Tueller, famous for giving us the Tueller Drill gives an interview on the background and real meaning of his drill.

Take a look at the video with Mr. Tueller first, I’ll comment on it below. Also, I have a bunch of related posts on knives and defense against them.

 

Some thoughts on this excellent interview:

  • Lieutenant Tueller makes it very clear that 21-foot rule is not a rule at all. If anything, it’s a rule of thumb. As he explains, the distance at which you can effectively deploy a firearm will be greater or even smaller than 21 feet, depending on a host of circumstances. This is something that is routinely overlooked by people using the Tueller drill to promote their agenda, sell books and videos, etc. I think it’s one of the most important things Lt. Tueller says in this video.
  • It’s not an either/or choice. Just because the average LEO needs 21 feet to draw and shoot a knife or club-wielding attacker before he can close the gap, doesn’t mean that’s all there is to it. The experiment Lt. Tueller did was just that, an experiment. It is not use of force doctrine. He never said you have to stand there and try to duel the attacker. On the contrary, he explicitly says you should use cover and obstacles to gain more time. If you only win a second, that may be enough to clear your firearm and shoot and stop the attacker. So your conclusion should perhaps be that movement, footwork and the like are just as important as training to clear leather as fast as you can. This is my biggest complaint against those instructors who use (or misuse) what Lt. Tueller showed with his drill.
  • There’s more than long range. The Lt. makes another crucial point: at close range, you try to block or disarm somebody going for a weapon. You do not try to draw from that distance because you can’t win; the attacker is already ahead of you. Especially in a civilian self-defense situation, this matters a great deal. As a good rule of thumb, you might want to train for this: whenever somebody close to you makes a sudden movement to grab something (in his pocket, behind his back, etc.) stop him right away from deploying it. Personally, I consider a hand disappearing slowly just as much a threat, it doesn’t even have to move fast. If you’ve practiced sneaking a weapon into your hand while talking to somebody, you know exactly what I mean.
  • Self-defense for law enforcement is not the same thing as self defense for civilians. As a civilian, you do not have the same authority a LEO has. Nor can you react the same way. Even more, the threats you face will also be different. The prime example is this: Of all the incidents I know of where civilians were attacked by an aggressor wielding a knife or club, not one of them started at 21 feet or beyond. Every single one of these started from either touching range or from a handful of feet away.  Bad guys and criminals like to come close before they stab or hit you. Your training should reflect this reality.

 

Over the years, I’ve heard some of the most ludicrous theories from people who heard about the Tueller drill or experimented with the concept. They invariably came to conclusions that fit their own view of how violence should be while ignoring the realities of what happens in a real self-defense situation. It’s great to see Dennis Tueller himself set the record straight about where the drill came from and give some extra information on what it doesn’t mean.

Knife Fight in Beijing

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Dave sent me this video of a knife fight in Beijing. Take a look first:

Before you read on, here are some more posts on the topic of knives and knife defense

Here’s what I see happening:

  • They’re having trouble trying to kill each other. There’s posturing, talking (to the other guy and also the girl who might be involved in the whole thing), pauses, etc., throughout the whole knife fight. More on this in a bit.
  • Neither one of the men is very effective. Count the number of stabs, slashes and cuts. Then count how many times they hit.
  • Mr. Black Jacket got very lucky. At 48sec, he tries a clumsy front kick and his opponent comes just shy of slashing him across the leg. Things could have gone awfully wrong right there.
  • His luck runs out at 1min17. Mr. White Shirt lands a cut that sends his knife flying in front of the bus. Mr. Black Jacket is forced to run (and even turn his back…) to save his life. Had Mr. White Shirt charged after his first hit, Mr. Black Jacket would have been pinned against the bus and then…
  • Mr. White Shirt gets serious. Right after disarming his opponent, Mr. White picks up the knife at 1min20, ignores the police officer and runs after Mr. Black Jacket to finish the job. Another key moment in the whole fight.
  • He comes to his senses? At the end of the video, he seems to calm down a little bit and reacts to the verbal commands of the police officer. He even drops the knife.

 

Some thoughts:

  • The Beijing people have guts. Look at the number of pedestrians, cyclists and guys on motorbikes just standing there and watching the show. Even with Mr. White Shirt coming right at them with two knives, they don’t move. Either they’ve got all kinds of courage or they’re stupid as hell. Personally, I’d be running fiercely if this happened anywhere near me.
  • This type of knife fight is where Filipino and Indonesian martial arts have a lot of value. There’s a lot of long-range fighting going on and a lot of opportunities to do crossing and following cuts to disarm or damage the other guy. You need to know your angles very well but the openings are there. However, not every knife fight is a “duel” like this one. When somebody really wants to kill you, they tend to close the distance differently than these two guys. Which is why I hate a LOT of the knife sparring I see out there: it’s great to learn skills for some kinds of knife fights but suicide for others.
  • Everything is easy, until the other side starts fighting back. IMO, the main reason why neither man closes the distance is that they don’t want to die themselves. Charging an unarmed man with a knife is easy. Charging a knife-wielding opponent is something totally different: it takes the highest level of commitment because if you mess up, chances are high you’ll die. That’s why you see both men hanging back so much and trying to land shots without coming too close. As long as the other guy can’t reach them, they’re willing to attack but they don’t want to come too close when they do.
  • Taking turns. Every time one of the men advances, the other retreats. They do not stand their ground to try to finish the fight, they are unwilling to close the distance. Instead, they take turns advancing and retreating every time there’s an exchange.  This is a crucial point.
  • It’s all fun and games until somebody gets cut. When Mr. Black Jacket gets cut and loses his knife, it’s over: he runs like hell. This is a smart move, obviously (though running as soon as somebody pulls a knife is even smarter…) and it highlights what I wrote in the previous two bullets: when the other side fights back with equal weapons, fighting is hard. When one side has the advantage over the other, it becomes easier. Not just easier to “win” the fight but also to make the decision to close the distance to do some real damage. Which is exactly what Mr. White Shirt did as soon as he had the two knives.

 

Conclusion:

  • We can argue about the lack of training these guys had and so on. I’m not going to, but feel free to see that as a decisive factor here. Personally, I think it’s not as relevant as the other dynamics I mentioned.
  • IMO and IME, footwork and timing are crucial in a knife fight like this one. If you look at the fight again, you’ll notice the exchanges are basically along a straight line with some sideways and circular footwork right after. Incidentally, one of the reasons why I do the straight line free-style pushing hands  (starts at 3min10) is exactly that: it teaches you to function while you move up and down that line.
  • Dealing with an attacker who closes in is just as important as knowing how to handle somebody who hangs back and cuts away at the edges. However, these are IMO very different skills and I don’t think there is a lot of crossover between the two.
  • It takes a lot of nerve to stand still or close against somebody with a knife, even if you have one of your own. I think this video is a good example of that.

 

Some rhetorical questions:

  • If you look at your own training, how many of the knife defense techniques you learn require you to close in?
  • Looking at this video, do you think you’ll have the guts to close in on a knife-wielding attacker or will you instinctively back up like these two guys?

 

Just some thoughts to ponder while you train.

Dan Inosanto and the Tueller drill

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I heard of this a long time ago but never saw the actual video. So I’m glad to finally see Dan Inosanto wielding a knife on police officers to illustrate the lessons from the Tueller drill. Props to TDA Training for the find.

Before we start, here are my other posts on knife defense.

A lot has been said about the Tueller drill already so I won’t rehash it all here. Just some thoughts:

  • If you’d like some more background, here’s an interview with Sergeant Dennis Tueller on his drill back then and his thoughts on it now:
  • I like what he said about movement, looking for cover, obstacles, etc. These are all concepts you consistently find in traditional martial arts that have kept their original knowledge. Nil novi sub sole, I guess.
  • When you look at Dan Inosanto in the clip, notice how he sticks his hand in his pocket to take out the knife. That should be your cue to act. Every time a hand goes out of sight or you can’t see what’s in it, you should expect it to either hold or go for a weapon.
  • A key issue many people seem to miss is that the Tueller Drill points out the importance of controlling the distance when you’re close and not only when you want to stay at 21 feet or more. Either you have to be far enough to react with a fight-stopping response (i.e. shoot the guy) or you have to be close enough to stop him from getting his knife out. It’s this being close part that people tend to overlook. There’s more to it than meets the eye but it can work very well. More on that another time.
  • Notice how smoothly Mr. Inosanto goes from rushing the LEO to recognizing the target as it opens up and slashing the officer’s exposed throat cleanly. Doing that as you’re sprinting forward at full speed is not as easy as he makes it look.
Dan Inosanto Tueller Drill
Dan Inosanto shows a police officer what a knife can do in under two seconds…

A lot of bullshit has been said about knives in general and the Tueller drill in particular. I usually don’t comment all that much because this is a topic that brings the keyboard warriors out of the woodwork. But it was cool to finally see this video with Dan Inosanto after having heard of it for so long.

Review: Put ‘em down, Take ‘em out ! Knife fighting techniques from Folsom prison by Don Pentecost

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Here’s another look at an older review: “Put ‘em down, Take ‘em out ! Knife fighting techniques from Folsom prison” by Don Pentecost. I re-read this book and only slightly added things to the review.

Knife fighting has been a topic of debate for a long time. Many people, especially in the Martial arts, claim to teach techniques that work against the blade. Unfortunately, few instructors seem to have ever been in a knife fight. As a result, their techniques are sometimes very peculiar. I was intrigued by the book title, as the author seemed to offer experience from a place where cutting and stabbing is part of daily life. So it was with high interest that I read this book.

Mr. Pentecost starts his book by making some clear comments : Determination is more important than technique, be in the right mind set and learn to control adrenaline and fear. As a starting point on knife fighting, there are worse things to be said.

Don Pentecost shows what a real knife attack looks like
Don Pentecost shows what a knife attack looks like.

He goes on to kill off some popular myths concerning the use of knives in real encounters: Leading with the knife, facing off, the paralyzed arm, etc. All of these points are very important and the author explains clearly why these are myths. Pointing this out might seem useless to more experienced practitioners, but keep in mind that most people get their information on violence through television and movies. Unfortunately, these media offer a distorted view of reality and the repetitive effect of it will only reinforce this information on those who don’t have real fighting experience.
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